Investigator behaving unlawfully

[Vlasta]

Hi guys

Could you please let me know your thoughts on one of the questions from Certificate III below? I am just wondering what different people would do.

You become aware that an investigator you are working with on an inquiry is unlawfully obtaining vehicle registration numbers from a Police Officer.  What would you do?

Thank you

[wylie_ma@hotmail.com]

Hi Vlasta,

Recently I answered this question. I (rightly or wrongly) contested the presumption that the investigator had in fact unlawfully obtained information. Unless the investigator made a threat or promise/inducement to the Police officer to obtain this information, then the investigator would not have acted illegally, as it was the Police officer who committed the breach.

This aspect aside, I think that the question asks to consider how you would react to a situation in which you could reasonably suspect an operative has committed and offence. I brought up the Australian Private Investigator Network Code of Ethics, which posits that all conduct by investigators must be done within state and Commonwealth laws, and where impropriety – or indeed even corruption –could be suspected, then it must be reported.

Hope this helps

[Vlasta]

Thank you, yes it was a great help.

[BigGeorge]

Hi

Vlasta, I don't mind admitting that there's been many times over the years (while I was still in the PI business) that I'd go into a police station and have a friendly, genuine chat with a copper to discuss something or rather and there were many times that a friendly copper would look up the records and tell me things which were often very useful.

Applying the logic expressed by the other contributor, there's nothing wrong in what I did? Yes, those coppers did the wrong thing and indeed, by today's much tougher laws, these are criminal offences, but I didn't do anything wrong because I didn't coerce anyone or pay anything or taken a devious, secretive approach.

Or did I?

If you go past the ATM at night and bundles of cash fall out of it and you collect it and keep it, did you commit an offence?

Or, if you know, as you should, that it is an offence for a police officer to access police records and pass them on to an unauthorised person, should you just keep the records and use them? Or keep quiet and let your colleague use them in the investigation you are both doing? Or should you be reporting the copper and the investigator? Because if you do not, what chance is there that police investigate and accuse you of being complicit to the crime?

Which ever way you turn it and look for convenient excuses, it is an offence what is being done and you have a duty to report it to authorities. Don't kid yourself about it. Crooked coppers and crooked PIs give this industry a bad name. Weed them out at every opportunity. (and if you know of any, let me know).

Thank you (steps off box)

BG

[kalbitzer66]

Hi Vlasta

I answered this one a short time ago and chose to do so in two parts. "Firstly" by offering the obvious correct answer that you should do the correct thing both morally and ethically by correctly reporting parties involved to the relevant bodies in your state. However make it at least a paragraph by adding the correct detail.
But "secondly" I think that it is certainly noteworthy to add a caution bellow this, as far as to say that repercussions may follow, so caution and maybe a little common sense may be advisable when reporting a policeman or fellow Investigator. If someone is doing wrong, do not do business with them.
Maybe not the answer that some may agree with, but as I see it, there are always several factors to be weighed up. Also answering this question in two parts I feel shows that you certainly know the correct thing to do, but are also aware of other factors that may come into play and that you need to be aware of.

Kind Regards: Eduard

[spelcheck]

"But "secondly" I think that it is certainly noteworthy to add a caution bellow this, as far as to say that repercussions may follow, so caution and maybe a little common sense may be advisable when reporting a policeman or fellow Investigator. If someone is doing wrong, do not do business with them. "
Maybe not the answer that some may agree with, but as I see it, there are always several factors to be weighed up."

Real life answer for this question ... Grow a set of proverbials and do the right thing.  Any computer activity conducted by a copper is absolutely auditable.  It's amazing how people in authority (read coppers in this instance) change from overbearing ogres into insignificant jellyfish when faced with an airtight brief of evidence.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing, or whatever that quote is   

[kalbitzer66]

Certainly "spelcheck", however in the context of the questions on the course assignments I personally like to answer with a view that I may demonstrate that I am aware of all possibilities and am able to look at any situation from different angles and perspectives. Not just the gung ho rip their throat out and watch them buckle and crumble before you answer. Hence the two part answer, The "correct answer" and the answer of possibilities.

As for "growing a pair", trust me, it is not that simple, never is. Without going into detail, I "blew the whistle" some time ago on a particular large service in Australia and almost had mine "cut off" So personally, I like to look at everything from several angles, yet would hope that I would ultimately always make the correct decisions.   

Regards: Eduard

[spelcheck]

My statement was not "gung-ho" but based on the simple fact that you are, like it or not, on one side or the other.  Being silent does NOT make you neutral.  Silence is tacit approval and provides fertile ground for bad things to grow.

And if you think silence can be justified by letting it go on the basis of it just being a naughty computer access (as opposed to say a really serious matter like a homicide), well the truth is corrupt acts are like Timtams, very few can people can have just one.  Such thiings are more often than not the tip of the iceberg.

I too had my nuts ripped off but mine have grown back bigger and stronger.  Hopefully yours are on the mend.

(Geez I can't believe I just got a bit cranky over a silly internet post, time for a cuppa I think) 

[kalbitzer66]

Hello again, spelckeck My answer was in response to the posted question. I believe that the answer should be well measured and show that you are able to provide an answer to demonstrate that you are able to think laterally and in a broader sense. As I made plainly clear in my response, there is a "correct" answer to the assignment question, this is the overwhelming view of all, "Including Yourself and Myself". However, as I have stated already, as with anything, there are always factors worth considering, and in the context of the Assignment     question, I believe they are worth noting within the answer to the assignment question.
Stating and answering differing points of view and possibilities within an assignment are not necessarily statements of personal beliefs or values. It has absolutely nothing to do with being on one side or the other, I believe answering assignment questions demonstrating several possible opinions/options/views shows a student is "thinking",....... 
Also if you read my posts closely you will note that I have not used in reference to unlawful activity: "I think", "I believe", "in my opinion" ect.

However: If you are asking: "I believe" that unethical and unlawful practice should not be tolerated and any such activity should be quickly and appropriately dealt with. Both Investigator and law enforcement have no place in an industry or profession where they are behaving in a manner that is less than ethical, honest and professional.

The answer that I would give as part of an assignment contains an added note that: It is worth thinking about ramifications, reprisals and possible consequences of reporting a policeman or even investigator. "I believe" that anyone who does not even consider this as even a remote possibility is not thinking realistically..... Again, "I believe" these points are worth noting and certainly adding to the assignment question that is posted.         


Regards: Eduard 

[spelcheck]

"But "secondly" I think that it is certainly noteworthy to add a caution bellow this, as far as to say that repercussions may follow, so caution and maybe a little common sense may be advisable when reporting a policeman or fellow Investigator. If someone is doing wrong, do not do business with them.
Maybe not the answer that some may agree with, but as I see it, there are always several factors to be weighed up."

I've obviously misread the above.  I took it to mean that your solution would be to simply ignore the situation and have nothing more to do with the offendeing parties.   I'd let that go through to the 'keeper if I heard it from a bloke in a pub but not here in a section that is intended to assist the eduction of potential investigators.  Particualry since your posts are so well constructed that they carry an air of authority and might well be taken at face value by those who don't know any better. Hence my feeling the need to post a contrary point of view.

And I've apparently misread "gung ho rip their throat out and watch them buckle and crumble before you answer".  Was this not having a crack at me?

[kalbitzer66]

Hi

I completely understand your last posting 'spelcheck' and the fact that my writing style possibly comes across as it does, I had this issue the other day  heheeeee, makes my day interesting. Maybe I should reassess how I write. Short and sweet is sometimes best. However, I usually always state I am also a student, I did not do that in my reply to this post because in the post I mentioned that I had tackled the same question not long ago, so did not do so, for that I am possibly at fault.

And 'yes', from my initial reply it is possible to interpenetrate I took it to mean that your solution would be to simply ignore the situation and have nothing more to do with the offending parties  I have attempted to clear up any ambiguity that may be taken from my initial reply, and feel that I have done so appropriately in trying to state my answer is purely from a learning point of view and should not be distorted with what I may or may not actually do.

As for "gung ho rip their throat out and watch them buckle and crumble before you answer".  Was this not having a crack at me? (you)  I certainly did not phrase that correctly "apologies" . I was attempting to simply imply that I feel it is important to do the right thing, yet be weary of jumping in feet first without considering all actions and implications. Often people (in a broad sense, any profession) who have a strong sense of right and wrong will do the right thing and report etc. those who are bad apples, so to speak. But in the process of doing so find their career shattered, it has happened many times. I will have great trouble explaining this in a short paragraph so best not try, however you personal obviously have dealt with this and have gone about it correctly (not naively or with only one barrel loaded).

It is more than likely possible to write a few A4 pages on You become aware that an investigator you are working with on an inquiry is unlawfully obtaining vehicle registration numbers from a Police Officer.  What would you do? the initial post..... It is a simple question but when thinking about it, has an answer that is not 100% B&W. And the objective in any "learning" exercise (anywhere) is to think, and then show that you have thought...Report? Yes! "Think" about broader implications? Yes!

Everyone has their own opinion and thoughts, that is what makes life interesting! 

Kind Regards: Eduard 

[spelcheck]

It's all good.

I guess both options have now been thoroughly discussed ... my option and the wrong option 

Obviously I have rigid thoughts on this subject matter and I also apologise if my wording was a bit strong.

Best of luck with your studies and future career.